0:00
handshakes or not handshakes no handshakes
0:06
were you knowing where you were going like at least in the first move in total I've been 19 years outside of my country
0:13
and you know I was always for the three countries I was in malaria zone so
0:19
you're kind of starting to realize you you unfortunately see or hear people dying how difficult was for you being a
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a white woman in this kind of industry in an African country it was the best
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decision in my career and it still is
0:37
welcome to Expert Experts today guest is someone who navigated expert life in
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some of the most unexpected destinations vonda Serovska vanda has built a career
0:49
made lifelong connections and even started a family all while living abroad and working at the male-dominated world
0:55
of B2B telecommunications she spent 5 years across Congo DRC Benin and Kotibore
1:02
managing top level clients as a sales leader we will talk about her experiences and stories about life
1:09
business and culture that shape her life in West and Central Africa so sit back
1:15
relax and let's explore this expert experience together [Music]
Guest Background & Expat Journey
1:23
panda welcome thank you so much for for accepting the invitation and and being here in the show with us uh it's a it's
1:30
a pleasure to have you here thank you Marco h I would say like we start from the
1:37
beginning of your your experience uh I know that you're from originally from Poland uh but you moved abroad for
1:45
studies and then you lived also working abroad so what is what is the beginning
1:50
of this whole story where are you from and how you ended moving abroad
1:55
uh so I was born in Warso so I'm originally from Warso in Poland um and I
2:01
lived here until I was 18 i kind of decided that there was
2:07
nothing left for me uh like I didn't see my journey I would say through the university in Poland and I left when I
2:15
was 18 i first worked as a nanny in France and then I started studying there
2:20
so I finished my studies in France and I did as well in the UK i wouldn't call that was what I call
2:27
really experty life it was kind of you know as you can imagine a student you
2:33
know living in a in a in a foreign foreign country but it was it was very
2:38
formative I think it formed me and uh opened a little bit you know possibilities for me being in France at
2:44
that time uh when I was then I then moved for one year to UK and stayed there started my
2:52
kind of professional journey I would say and uh I think I did nine years in
2:59
London so it's quite a long time but yeah uh I did I think six years in
3:05
Paris great great place to study of course and um and that's was when I was
3:13
when I was living in uh in the UK working at Ericson I had an opportunity
3:18
to kind of move into that expert world so to speak and I took the the role
3:23
within that company that took me to West Africa to three West African countries
3:29
so as I was sharing in total I've been 19 years outside of my country which is
3:35
a long time okay and I'm now in to Poland back five years so I've had quite
3:41
a long time outside of my home country for sure not bad it's I'm actually in
3:47
the middle of that so I'm in eight years abroad yeah and it feels already long so 19 is
3:54
a lot of time like you more were more years in in London than I was already in in three other countries to be honest
4:01
but uh I I I share the same story a little bit spar on the professional part
4:09
i was working and and I got the option of going abroad due to work so I get that point uh I mean in your case you
4:16
were already outside and then it it allowed you to move even further away um
4:21
how how did you take that uh as an opportunity i assume it it was your
4:27
decision to move there but how how does it come to you to end being in in West
4:32
Africa it's not one of the common destinations actually yeah so so funnily enough when I was in
4:38
London I was trying I would say for two or three years to move to Nigeria so I
4:44
always had the Africa West Africa as a I would say as a business like I somehow I
4:51
was feeling that I will be doing a great job there and to be frank I didn't have any facts like there was no you know I
4:59
was just feeling that this is where the money is well kind of really from professional points of view I'm very you
5:04
know like focused on the money so I wasn't able to get land job in Nigeria
5:10
because you don't you don't hire someone from London that looks like me i mean I had no experience and it wasn't so easy
5:18
so I was applying for like um jobs um that were in in on the African continent
5:25
and then that opportunity actually came through French language so I was in
5:31
Ericson talking to someone that was hiring um that person was sitting in South Africa and I was telling him oh
5:37
you know I applied for the role in uh in Lebanon and uh I'm thinking what they
5:43
will come up you know Erikson is a is a very global organization so I was able to do that and he was like yeah but Lebanon
5:51
aren't you are you you don't have to have French as a as a language and I was
5:56
like yeah but I I'm I'm French speaker i I studied in France and then he kind of
6:02
the next day he called me and he said "Okay actually we have a role for two years in Abijir but you're not able to fill in
6:09
with your current role so is this something you would like to take?" So actually this came a bit
6:16
like the sideway you know languages are always always there like it comes back
6:23
it will come back and help you in a in a very you know unexpected ways and then I was like
6:29
okay I haven't thought of it I haven't thought of French countries there because I was focused on on you know
6:35
thinking that something somewhere else is is interesting and and to be frank
6:40
that move actually in one day I got that job so the next stay with the boss of that person that called me back we had
6:47
like 30 minutes and I got that role and then in next week the boss the big boss
6:54
in Sweden so he was already sent sitting in in Kenya Robert was like hold on I
7:01
have to speak to her because I'm not sure she knows what's happening what will you know I I have to check if this
7:07
person is ready and I have to have half one hour with her on video and I was
7:12
like so actually this person wasn't really hiring me but he was a big executive and um yeah and and uh and you
7:21
know he became my friend he was asking me very kind of you know surprising
7:26
questions like do you think how will you make friends you know how will you be on your
7:32
own how will you spend time on your own and I was like wow like this will be very different so so it was a kind of
7:40
route I would say through that skill of of French also I was going to do exactly
7:46
the same role as I was which was kind of comfortable I would
7:51
Okay makes a lot of sense i mean languages open doors that's for sure
7:57
like I I moved to two new to the new two new countries in Europe that I didn't
8:03
speak a single word of that language and that was a a big mistake or at least well I ended speaking German and I ended
8:10
speaking Greek but which are not easy language also to learn in Europe but h
8:16
bureaucratic wise it's a nightmare like when you arrive and I absolutely when you arrive to a new country and you
8:21
already speak the language it makes life so easy here in Italy I I can
8:26
communicate with people and I can talk with everyone and that's so nice like I feel so much easy on especially on this
8:33
whole part of like doing documentation and everything like with with the government and tax wise etc etc it's
8:40
always another story um I wanted to ask you because you already entered a little
8:46
bit the whole idea of like the difference no like because I I
8:52
assume like uh the first country was Kot Debor as as far as I understand Kivo and Congo DRC and then I was in Benin
9:00
Republic yeah were you were you knowing where you were
9:06
going like at least in the first move did did you know the country at all before or look I think I was a little
9:14
bit now when I think of it I think I was a bit too confident so I know because I
9:22
know what happened afterwards so basically you know I've been to Ghana on
9:27
holidays once before going to Abuij which is not the same country still West Africa
9:33
i've been to South Africa on holiday South Africa being very different and I've been to Egypt and
9:40
Morocco and kind of was feeling like I was um that I'll get by and I I have
9:46
this I had always that feeling previously when I was abroad that you know that I have this grit that I can go
9:52
to these difficult locations and I had that kind of I still do feel that that
9:58
they'll be okay but I wasn't it's very different
10:04
when you and and you know we know that it's very different to go somewhere for one week you're visiting you're moving
10:10
around it's very different to go somewhere and start working doing exactly the same thing and having the
10:17
same expectations where you kind of you walk out of your office and I had that for
10:23
months you walk out from your office and you're like "Wow I'm in this country and I forgot
10:29
because you know I was typing my things doing my presentations and talking to people and you suddenly so it was
10:35
difficult i think for two months I was just shocked and you know I wasn't
10:41
shocked with with the this being Africa it was small things you know like I was
10:47
overwhelmed with the sun like you know small things that you can't I was
10:53
overwhelmed with you know funny thing I was overwhelmed and I couldn't get over that
10:59
for 3 months that every day when I'll be finished my work the sun will be setting
11:05
and that's it and this will not change through the seasons
11:10
because this is you know you're near Ecuador this is This is the sunset and I
11:16
was just like this is unbelievable so basically I discovered that one hour after I finish work any any time of the
11:23
year that's it it starts to be dark and it's complicated to go you know there
11:28
are lots of cars it wasn't so easy to move around so there were like for two or three months I was kind of like under
11:36
this weight of thinking how will I get how was this I mean it's not really was
11:42
this a good decision and I was sure this was a good great decision for my career but I was thinking is this sacrifice not
11:50
too big for something that I think you know will come down the line that I have always I had always this idea or feeling
11:56
that this will be great for my career so this was overwhelming honestly I think six months
12:05
can can imagine and and maybe that's that's a misconception
12:10
also that we have as Europeans sometimes and and understanding parts of Africa as a block
12:16
and I think that's something that we we do and we do with other continents as a as an idea of like India as a as a
12:25
single thing and when you go to South India or North India it's a complete different thing with with countries in
12:30
the north of Africa it happens the same with West Africa it happens the same did you notice is a big difference between
12:35
the countries that you lived in uh between Yeah yeah so I think this comes from experience i think people that live
12:42
in Asia and they have that you know nowadays I hope I can say it on the on
12:47
the video nowadays when I'm talking to my daughter and we looking at someone from Africa i can tell and this is 90%
12:54
of of my knowledge where this person is from just looking at how they dressed
13:00
and how they looking you know you get this um also from the accents you know
13:06
there are there are big differences like even countries that are really neighboring because of their size and
13:12
different you know access to water to la to to the sea there are massive
13:17
differences even when you're taking Benin Republic Togo and Nigeria which
13:22
are really close to one another they're just completely different people are mixing a lot like
13:28
you know you kind of you know the the the the way they were you know drafted the
13:36
countries unfortunately due to the history are kind of like arbitrary and I think a lot of yeah exactly this is what
13:42
you see straight lines of Africa but there is a lot of people moving and then you have people kind of from two
13:49
countries which is which is kind of the new understanding oh yeah actually this shouldn't be the border but anyway so I
13:55
do feel big differences Is there differences in the people that how they are dressed uh food um there are some
14:02
similarities so funnily enough we know when you go into supermarkets in one French-speaking African country and
14:09
another there will be similarities like you will see a lot of things coming from Lebanon like there is a lot of things
14:15
coming from different locations that you wouldn't expect in Europe that is importing for example like food stamps
14:22
and things like this so you see the similarities the businesses are similar that might be also other reasons but
14:29
um differences are big i think from my experience which is probably a good
14:35
experience the way we were working in that one organization that I was in three different countries was obviously
14:43
like this was probably the the design it was the same was very similar and that kind of I think grounded me through this
14:50
through these first months when I was kind of like almost kind of like my my brain was
14:56
exploding from the you know from kind of everything around me i think this was
15:02
this was kind of difficult but because I was working in the same organization that I knew that has that had this
15:10
uh you know matrix working this is a big corporate organization i think that was
15:15
very helpful so I felt kind of safe once you know in front of my laptop and and
15:21
working when I was finishing work I was like okay so what do I do with myself now it was completely different um
15:27
challenges I would say were your colleagues there from from the
15:33
country or you had other expert uh colleagues in there how was the the environment yeah so that depends I for
15:42
example in Abij we it was a big office uh and I would
15:48
say 90% of people were local from Kivvoir I started to understand and this is
15:54
something that you understand when you're learning when you're working in in the West Africa or in Africa there is
16:00
also a part there was like I would say 5% or maybe more of people that were
16:05
local but from neighboring countries it's quite common because these are engineers people that are skilled that
16:11
would come from other African countries that are not far and that would be in any office I would see it so then you
16:17
kind of understanding how the skills need to be pulled from other countries
16:23
in order to fill in that specific you know need so there was always a lot of people from Nigeria and from Ghana they
16:29
were very skilled a lot of engineers a lot of people as well I would say from Sagal so there will be some people the
16:36
first year I was working I was sitting next to Manuel from Portugal so I was next to his desk and
16:43
it was a big boss so this was very useful for me in many way and there were
16:49
also so actually for I would say from the non-affrican countries one Portuguese person there
16:55
were two guys from Chile and we were kind of the four I would say four white
17:00
people I guess that's what we it would say non-Africans that were in that office and we were kind of we were doing
17:07
like we would go out for on Saturday for example to drive somewhere and stay and
17:13
see something together so we would I would not not necessarily hang around because we weren't working
17:19
together but it was something that you know like me and my we are so close because we had he also arrived the next
17:25
day I think after me and he it was his first role in that in that role as well we good friends still it's it's it's
17:32
amazing how things that are different outside it keeps you Yeah brings you closer
17:38
it's it's interesting like in it sounds very similar when I was in Germany I worked for Deutsche Bank which is also
17:44
like an enormous corporation in the end and most of our colleagues were experts
17:50
and when you think about it we didn't have much in common like uh
17:56
with a lot of the people but the fact that you were new to a country and you were an expert in there and you were
18:01
feeling the same or living the same experience struggling with the same bureaucratical problems willing to see
18:06
the same I don't know tourist spots maybe or or even like countryside or
18:12
nature around where you were unites us in a way that if we would have been uh
18:17
going to school together for example we not probably had being ending being friends or like being connected in a in
18:24
an special way that's the that's the reality but then suddenly because you are in a country that you don't
18:30
understand the language you don't understand the culture you are there lost and you are getting together with
18:36
the people who's passing through the same thing no let's say like this um I
18:41
wanted to ask you because you said something about the contract itself like you said that you were sent there for a
18:46
position of two years uh was that the case in all three countries that you know that was a for a limited amount of
18:53
time yeah so I think my first I was I was sent there I was given that
19:01
role I was told for two years but in in actual terms I was given a
19:06
non-determined contract which was like permanent contract that is actually that was advantageous to me but I think was
19:13
more related to what contracts the company wanted to use for many reasons might be a lot of
19:19
reasons um what did happen though I did one year exactly in that role in Abijah
19:26
and then as I was really I wouldn't say hustling but I was networking I was
19:32
trying to see where are the best places like what is the most interesting in this company in here in that region and
19:40
um and I managed to I mean it's maybe easier actually than in Europe to meet a
19:46
lot of people and get to know a lot of people from other countries that were working within the same within the same
19:53
organization and um I applied for the sales role so I was in a proposal manager role which was kind of more
20:00
commercial but behind the scenes look be looking at the biggest deals and looking you know working together with the team
20:07
it wasn't me in front of the customer and I wanted to be in front of the customer you know as I was saying I had
20:13
this strong feeling like this feeling i was convinced that I will be so good in
20:19
front of the customer and Ericson teams weren't so sure they were like "She's
20:25
not from here." Like they were kind of you know it wasn't so easy i had to really convince people and make proof of
20:31
it and bring customers like almost from the street so that they kind of want to
20:37
give me a shot and I applied at that time for the account manager role in DRC
20:43
and this was coincidental that they were actually were ch wanted to change an account manager and actually at the same
20:50
week I just randomly contacted this person he was he had to find someone so she was like how does she know this
20:57
let's see and I had you know internal interviews there was another person
21:02
applying for it but uh I think part of it was I was already very close i was
21:08
already working working in French so there is there are those those things as well that were playing so I moved to a
21:14
different role within a sales organization really directly with a customer and at that time obviously I
21:20
moved to Kinshasa from Abij so I moved to Democratic Republic of the Congo yeah
21:27
very exciting times interesting i I let you talk because I
21:33
find it Yeah it was very exciting you know I remember I was landing I was
21:39
first time you know so I was first time traveling to Kinshasa for the wrong so I knew you
21:44
know it's kind of scary but that happened every time with me you're landing somewhere and you know you will
Biggest Challenges & Surprising Moments
21:50
be staying there and you don't you can't just test you know see do I like it no you're landing there you have all of
21:56
your luggage and you have to prove yourself and you know you have certain targets and people to meet immediately
22:03
and perform to the highest kind of standard of this organization so so I
22:08
think it was tricky but I think the fact that I had this role that I had to perform I think for me for my personal
22:16
it was helpful you know I was focusing on that and those small things that I was like how do I solve all these
22:21
problems people around me and noises you know how to find a flat and you know
22:27
things that are very becomes complicated when you're not from the location like especially I would say in uh on the
22:34
continent on the African continent And you know I had some help there was the help of the company i had uh 3 months of
22:41
the you know um accommodation organized and there was some other things but then
22:46
um you know there are things that they don't organize you they're not organizing and you know your free time
22:53
your friends you know you you don't necessarily in Kinshasa it's a great
22:59
very dynamic city very big however you don't have the same level obviously like
23:07
London or any bustling city with a lot of you know single people people that
23:13
want to you know go out they want to eat out that want to see this thing it's
23:19
very different dynamic so there is a there is a small area normally that you
23:25
would be able to go out but then after months you know this area of the city
23:31
and this is the place you can go out and you know there are a few places and then you start seeing the same people which
23:37
has it own you know great great sides but uh but it's very different it kind
23:42
of it shifts you so much your your life become very different
23:48
like really I That's that's now that we are talking already about challenges and surprising
23:54
moments i had a couple of questions about exactly that like how does it how did you make friends in there how did
24:01
you make uh personal connections with with the locals even like uh I don't know if it if you live really in a
24:08
bubble uh other guests that I had they describe it very much like you are in a
24:13
protected uh place and then you live in there you move out only in district what
24:19
you were saying no like in designated areas and how how was it I think it was a
24:25
little bit like this and it wasn't with me so uh there were a few things so obviously
24:33
there were my colleagues that I was working with and they were in my office and you know through the years I would
24:39
get closer to some and not so close to another others and I think there is this
24:45
thing again that you know colleagues that were from another country we kind of would be they would be all Africans
24:52
but we would get closer and I'm still very close with a lot of people just because maybe they didn't
25:00
have so many family members next to them i think it's part of that you know people that were really from the city
25:06
from that town or a village somewhere nearby they would have so many I think
25:12
um personal time spent with different things organizing things for the families i think part of that was that
25:19
they weren't as available and you know otherwise people that had their families a bit further away or they might have
25:25
small family but they weren't so busy i think I was able to build with them um
25:31
great friendships um I think there was a challenge though
25:38
so you know I would not have so many friends so just to give you an example in Abijah I had one well one friend very
25:45
good sonagalis um from my office very very good friend of mine we worked
25:52
together and we did a lot of things together as well but we were kind of similar I was outside she was also on
25:59
her own and you know we were kind of spending our time together and other than that I had another friend from
26:05
Luxembourg uh Maril who was coming in exactly the same time as me she was
26:12
coming for to EY so also kind of like a expert totally she was coming on her own
26:19
from Europe and then we became like you know we were always together we would meet every day Mark every day like this
26:26
is not possible in London right you don't do that in Paris or in London so it's a very different dynamic and it's
26:33
almost like we always had something to talk about we always had somewhere to go and eat and there was so many things
26:41
that we were doing together that would never happen to us you know like police chasing us like people chasing us some
26:49
random guys chasing us you know like everything was kind of funny but you know but you know on the spot
26:56
sometimes things were you know very different we had to kind of we're working I think together we were
27:02
together because it was easier you know like things were when we were two we were kind of not necessarily safer but
27:09
kind of stronger so it was different i didn't have number of people friends
27:14
acquaintances i would just have acquaintances I would say from the office friends from the office and
27:20
friends outside i think what I did um develop and this
27:25
was exceptional related to the the role that I had was that starting from the moment I moved to
27:33
Kinshasa I was account manager leading the account so I was the representative of the company and also entertaining a
27:41
customer or customers so that meant that I was going
27:47
out and inviting customers a lot so both in Benin and in uh in uh in Kinshasa
27:55
which actually meant I remember it was a moment when I had a I had a driver that so I was giving a driver and a car in
28:03
Kinshasa and my driver was finishing like the the his job finish was
28:08
finishing at 9:00 p.m and I remember after one month I had to go back to my boss and
28:13
say that I have to have a driver 24/7 because I'm dropping off customers so
28:20
they are relying on me that I'll pick them up that was the kind of I'll pick them up with the driver and I'll drop
28:26
them off 11:00 or midnight or 11:00 let's say so they gave me like I had a
28:31
special 24/7 actually chauffeur service and that shows that my time was you know
28:40
and they became my friends i would say you know customer is always a different relationship but to be frank like I was
28:46
seeing some of my customers a lot once a week outside of of the office you know
28:52
so definitely I think it's different in than what I've seen in Europe yeah i I
28:58
have two questions more about the challenges and you touched them briefly individually let's say this the first
29:05
one it's clearly you are a single woman
29:11
uh in a clearly maledominated industry in a country that it's maybe have
29:17
different cultural ways of doing uh business probably and dealing a lot with
29:23
clients um h how you adapted to to the cultural changes and we will touch that
29:30
a little bit more because I think a mini game about business relations but how
29:36
difficult was for you being a a white woman in this kind of industry in an
29:42
African country yeah specifically that you know in
29:47
telecommunications area where I work I think even in Ericson that is a
29:52
Swedish company women are 20% or 30% Max so any even customer it was rare I would
30:00
say when I was working my customer was MTN Benine there were quite a lot of women on the higher level so I was
30:07
talking to women as MTN is is that kind of company I would say rather this would
30:13
be men you know a lot of engineers obviously I was dealing with the network planners you know um CTO CIO would be
30:21
most of the time uh over there a man I think I had these benefit of them
30:28
knowing immediately that I am from outside like that I'm a white woman that
30:34
I'm foreign that I'm not knowing that there maybe there are certain things that I don't know I think it's a little bit like it first gives you some they
30:41
give you that benefit of a doubt that she's coming from outside and I think you know as long as
30:49
you you earn trust and you earn your stripes so to speak like you perform as a as this helper you you know as a
30:56
salesperson you're helper you to fix things you things are to go smooth I
31:02
think they I would say they probably would give me one month in their mind when they saw me they were like who is
31:09
this girl she's so pale like one of the my my friends my customer who then one
31:15
year later told me you were sitting there and I'm looking in your hands and I'm like who
31:22
did they send here she's so pale But basically he was thinking like he
31:28
was thinking of me as a how will I survive like this is really tough you know coming to
31:33
DRC and I wasn't looking tough I guess as I was just looking normal like I you
31:40
know I look normal so I I wasn't looking tough I think also they were used to having men uh in these
31:46
roles um I think there were differences but I was giving a little bit of room
31:55
knowing that I'm from outside and I will be different so I was not trying to do business and discussions conversations
32:02
entertainment as if I was from the country because that wouldn't work and also I don't know so no one was telling
32:09
me I was behaving almost the same way I would in
32:15
Europe and I think they kind of people that were working with me when that they
32:20
already were trusting me and seeing that I want their good that I don't want to sell them some some crap like that I
32:28
really I am on their side i think they were giving me that room that sometimes it will be a bit different you know
32:35
maybe you know I don't know even maybe I laugh more or you know or you know there are certain things that I wouldn't
32:42
know i do think that um I noticed that was maybe after a year certain things
32:49
that are you know you as a as a someone from outside you don't realize certain
32:54
things you only afterwards realize it and actually after a
33:00
year after a conversation with a customer that made me a little bit more aware of that I only then realized and I
33:08
started to be quite careful that me being an account manager the salesperson
33:14
talking constantly to the same people because you know I would have like five major contacts and there will be other
33:20
people but you know those were you know CFO CTO big guys and also uh
33:28
engineers that from outside you know that could be that you know for someone
33:33
for the wives of these guys that could potentially be like threat not threatening but I wasn't I was
33:40
completely oblivious is and then I was I had this realization
33:45
someone was asking me what I think about that that maybe someone thinks there is something
33:50
else and then I was like I don't care I can't care and I was
33:56
continuing the same way and then I you know it's kind of like I can't change
34:01
what someone else thinks ultimately I'm me and I represent
34:06
the the best way I can the company and I'm trying to do do my job the best way
34:13
but you know my job doing my job would be going every day to the fifth floor to
34:18
see the CFO in the office to make sure that you know our collection is paid or
34:23
certain things so basically I kind of couldn't you know it's almost like
34:29
everything could be lose-lose like you can't win everything and I think because I was like not you
34:37
know I was careful but I couldn't really afterwards second guess myself
34:44
because you know you're not need someone else so someone did tell me that what I think about that and you know maybe
34:50
there are some gossips and I was just laughing and thinking like well that's a joke because but indeed there are I
34:57
think because there is a big proximity in a way that you know if I was an
35:02
account manager and I'm actually working now as an account manager in Equinex in Warso I don't go to see my customers so
35:09
often at all like we meet once even if a quarter there is a lot of people in the
35:14
room it's a very different way of doing business but I also think because it was
35:21
a different business you know I had one customer or two so basically means I
35:26
know everyone in that company and I my job is to know everyone in that company and today I have 40 customers maybe 50
35:34
and you know they come to me when they need something and over there it was kind of making sure that things don't go
35:42
badly because the business was so big Even even going further when I was in
35:48
Cottonoo in Benin Republic the CTO requirement or kind of
35:54
like a jokey requirement but that was actually a requirement was that I sit that I sit in the customer office across
36:01
his glass door so that he sees me that I am in his office that I'm here if he
36:06
needs me I will be there so while I was working for someone else I was sitting in the customer
36:12
offices and um and that proximity was requirement
36:18
even that proximity that kind of you see and kind of obviously it's it's easy as
36:23
well this person is here to help me i need something I'll ask her you know that's probably ideal right when you
36:29
when you think from the customer point of view it's it's more like a personal relation at the same not
36:37
personal it's still professional but it's more closed in that sense no and it's interesting that you say that you
36:44
you you needed to adapt a little bit but a lot of clients also needed to adapt to your way the other way around and then
36:50
that's Yeah I think they did well that's good it shows it shows character at least that's Well you know
36:57
it also shows their flexibility customers are very flexible I think in in uh on the continent on the African
37:03
continent I would say nice uh before we jump to the to the cultural deep dive
37:09
and and taking a little bit I prepared a couple of uh expert mini games as I as I like to call them but uh I would like
37:17
you to to uh for show explain to our listeners if
Expat Life Hack & Advice
37:22
if who are considering working or moving to to a not so obvious expert
37:27
destination especially in West Africa uh what would be the biggest tip that you will give the
37:34
number one survival tip that you would give to them i think something that is easy makes
37:42
things easier when you're actually deciding and already moving is to keep something in your rituals or something
37:49
that you like doing whether this is activity or something that you can replicate there because there are so
37:56
many variables there are so many things that are changing and will be changing and you know just as I was saying about
38:02
the sun setting just the weather you know the the feel that you have on the street there are certain locations you
38:07
know me coming from rainy London it's impacted him quite so I
38:13
think when you can keep something or recreate it um that gives you this um
38:19
this peace and kind of uh if you can do it every day you know your kind of
38:25
routine so I started started to run i was a runner before i stopped running obviously when I obviously like I didn't
38:31
know where to run when I arrived this this is really busy there's a lot of cars and there was there is no pavement
38:38
i was in a in an area that was kind of a busy busy district with a lot of restaurants and there was just no space
38:45
to run so I was like suddenly I was like not very happy and thinking okay I'll
38:51
have to run in this in this gym and I don't like running on the treadmill and I was kind of I was feeling already my
38:58
mood was like or another thing that was a little bit pulling me down and then I
39:03
saw one person from my office that was in my apartment block a Nigerian project
39:09
manager that had this small light behind his back and he was running between the
39:15
cars at night and I was like I spoke to him and he's like "Yeah I have a great
39:21
route i have a light for you come and join me tomorrow." I was like "Wait wait wait." And we and we actually and I was
39:28
like you know it's like really you have cars like in a traffic jam and you have to run there are and it's dark and there
39:35
is no big lights at least at that time there wasn't big lights you know um on
39:40
the street so this was how he found his way and he was probably coming from Lagos so Abijah no big deal for him it's
39:47
a bigger city than Abijah and I started run with him and we were running every day
39:54
together and it just changed my mood it kind of gave me this power you know I'm
39:59
able to do something I loved and I thought I have to give up and actually no there is always a way you know and I
40:05
was continuing that when he left I continued i had my own lights i was running on my own and I was doing always
40:11
his route it was super safe it was so it kind of was helping me to clear my mind
40:18
but this whole feeling that you can you can you know overcome your fear and do something for yourself for this 40
40:26
minutes so I think in line with that it's great if you can to try to keep
40:33
something from your routine if it's an activity that makes you happy that's ideal i don't know if it's always
40:38
possible but definitely because it will be tough like at some point
40:44
yeah a lot of changes uh so at least one thing it keeps you connected to your
40:50
real self no let's say like this nice uh thank you so much so I would say that we
40:56
jump directly into into the first uh challenge hey there everyone i hope
41:02
you're enjoying this episode so far remember that the best way to stay tuned with the latest episodes of the podcast
41:08
is by clicking on subscribing YouTube and in your favorite audio platform for extra content and information follow
41:15
like and comment on our social media and visit our website expatexpertodcast.com thank you for
41:21
supporting our podcast and let's continue with the episode mini game that I prepared uh which I called which
Cultural Deep Dive & Fun Comparisons
41:27
country wins and I will name you a category of a thing and then you would
41:33
uh if you can explain me from the countries you lived on what what is the
41:38
one that you decide that or that you think that it's has the best of that category and the first one would be uh
41:46
the best street food the best street
41:51
food uh maybe kinshasa beignet so this is like very nice beignet that they're
41:57
making on the street i was eating them in the morning for a number of weeks before working so yeah definitely uh DRC
42:05
nice uh what about the fun work culture
42:10
that it's funny to work with yeah so I think I would say uh ab what I thought it was great
42:18
was you would have on Friday everyone will be coming in the traditional
42:24
outfits every Friday and you would see it everywhere everyone will be wearing
42:29
their traditional outfits whether this will be from the north from the south so you'll have different cuts and different
42:35
uh you know patterns and everyone in the office will be this this was kal Friday
42:41
so I was like I came on Friday and I was the only one dressed like me so I
42:47
started to catch up with that and I was having my own uh my own local outfits
42:52
made i would say it's a very fun loving nation Ians yeah cool uh related with
42:58
that most welcoming locals i would say in every country it's tricky
43:06
i have a big um I guess deep love for congalles
43:12
people and kinshasa itself and overall congalles culture but
43:17
I would say variance and and people from Benino also very welcoming it's just that Congo is kind of um maybe because
43:26
of a lot of problems complicated country touches me the most
43:32
the best weekend getaway spot uh oh that is a lovely one grandpa po
43:39
outside of Cottono in Benin so this is going towards Togo border all the way i
43:46
do think in the taxi or in a car it's 1 hour 15 minutes has beautiful beaches very nice
43:54
two or three small but very nice hotels great um fish uh awesome awesome and we
44:01
did that weekend many many times when I was there i need I need to note that one
44:07
market in a map as a place to visit uh what about uh best work life balance
44:17
I think in everyone so in every country I would say it's tricky to say it was
44:22
much better than what I had in Europe because that's a you know a story
44:30
because uh there is so much help so you know I could already work my driver will
44:38
come and pick me up i'm opening my laptop and I'm working in the car and
44:43
you know there is so many things there's so much help that you can get i had a nanny uh my daughter was born in South
44:51
Africa so she was small in Benin i had an amazing nanny she's an amazing person
44:56
you have so many so much help you can get that makes you optimize your time
45:03
you actually have more time so I think in every country this is I think the you
45:08
know the positive and this is definitely something that expats love that there is a lot of help that you can get yeah
45:15
absolutely related to getting help and I suppose Ericson also provided some support in there what is the most
45:22
efficient bureau bureaucracy very it was very very efficient
45:28
uh what about bureaucracy of each country ah I I think every country has
45:35
its own flavor of it it's very there the three countries are very bureaucratic i
45:41
would say Kivoir and Benin very bureaucratic because somehow I guess
45:49
from the history they still think or at that time when I was there so more than 5 years ago you know I think they were
45:56
taking as a as a as a template French bureaucracy which now France is kind of
46:02
trying to get rid of but I think they kind of building on that bureaucracy i would say maybe codivoir but to be frank
46:10
while extremely bureaucratic long-term uh and with a lot of effort I still
46:18
managed to get my retirement fund out of the country so so bureaucracy that
46:25
actually leads to something at a result that is almost unbelievable you know that you're paying in money that you'll
46:32
never recover because it's a retirement that you'll not have in this country and you know Ericson staff I left two years
46:40
afterwards three years they were still trying to recover that but they persisted and we actually did it so
46:47
there is incredible bureaucracy but it's like it's you know all the dots are
46:52
linked so I'm I'm still like impressed with that result to be honest
46:59
um last one of this uh round uh easiest place to make friends
47:07
uh I think maybe maybe DRC Congo nice
47:13
somehow uh the night life the um the things that you can do maybe
47:20
there is also a lot many experts maybe uh there is a lot of things that you can
47:25
do outside and there is a lot of kind of closeness that we we are all in this together and we trying to make the best
47:32
out of our time here and and and and work and have fun the the better best way I think I would say this is GRC
47:40
nice what about uh uh business etiquette i will uh switch a
47:48
little bit the dynamic of this one so I wanted to ask you because I'm also curious about it so I would uh put you
47:55
in two situations so two b business behaviors and you tell me from the countries that you lived in West Africa
48:02
if it's more common to do one thing or the other and the first one first one that I have it's if uh it's more common
48:08
to have strict contracts or verbal agreements
48:15
uh I would say verbal agreements but the expectation is that this verbal
48:21
agreement will be 100% the same when we sign it okay so you start with a verbal
48:27
agreement but that needs to be translated in paper as you said it in the verbal agreement cool uh emails or
48:34
face toface meetings from customer point of view face toface
48:41
meetings and it was funny because actually in uh in MTN when I was a uh my
48:47
customer was MTN we were actually well in Benin French-sp speakaking country where
48:53
everyone speaks French where you actually if you speak English only it's a challenge on a dayto-day kind of it's
49:00
it's very challenging because it's a small country all the emails were in English so it's incredible Yeah because
49:08
of MTN is a South African company and it's also translate you know anyone can review your manager your boss might be
49:14
sitting somewhere else incredible flexibility of a company you know basically working in two two languages
49:20
so they had to be proficient in both I would say 100% face to face basically we
49:28
wouldn't have certain discussions until we meet and then email is just formality
49:34
yeah uh maybe the last one checking the the time uh handshakes or not handshakes
49:43
no handshakes So actually no I would say it's very
49:49
different so it really be be it depends on the person so when I knew someone
49:56
there will be even hugs so someone a customer or you know a man because
50:04
they will give me a hug or actually this is what you do in France although I
50:09
think it's not in a work environment but that would happen that I would have pe on a on a on a cheek there will be
50:17
certain people certain executives that would um welcome me that way but I knew them
50:25
already and they also knew that I was okay with that so very different now I had another situation that's why I say
50:31
no handshakes that my my own colleague a my engineer was coming from Lebanon and
50:38
he comes and I want to hug him and he's he keeping his hands behind and he's
50:44
like I I can't and then I couldn't like I was just so surprised and then so kind
50:51
of it makes me it made me a bit more aware that there are different things
50:56
and for different reasons so I would say it's really dependent on the person yeah
51:03
i I wanted to it came to my mind just when you said that what about the titles and
51:10
the way of talking to each other do you use the first names or you use formal titles in in business in in these
51:17
countries yeah so I would say when I was meeting a customer you know in French you have
51:23
because we always speak French uh I would hardly ever speak English unless there was someone that was a
51:29
foreigner so we would mostly use the second so it kind of like a vu form
51:34
which is this you as a plural as a starter uh but that will be
51:42
you know informal very quickly so they would always informally address me and then I would I still try to address them
51:49
more formally so that I create this distance you know many people were older than me
51:56
i I I actually thought myself that the distance is good for me they would always they would most of the time you
52:02
know uh you know use informal language to me yeah interesting um yeah I would
Audience Q&A
52:09
say we jump to the next section i ask uh the audience and the listeners for having us some questions uh for you uh
52:17
and I received two of them that are very interesting i received more but we covered majority of them so I was
52:23
checking right now what what what could I ask from them uh I have one from J uh
52:29
T uh which ask how did your time in West Africa shape your career after coming
52:35
back uh to Europe yeah it was the best decision in my career and it still is so
52:42
it was when I was thinking that this will be great for my career it was exponentially better and this is
52:48
something that I don't know why I felt that way but it basically exploded my
52:53
career if I can say that because I had great results in sales i started to know
53:00
so many people within my organization and other organizations and basically it kind of changed what I was interested in
53:07
so I'm still very interested in the region and these customers and the customers the telco customers even now
53:13
that I'm more into data center business the actual connectivity of the customers
53:18
that I was serving at the time is so important you know fiber is so important in Africa you know satellites are so
53:26
important subc these are so important that it actually changed you know when I
53:31
was in Europe I didn't have my own preference like I was like okay I can work here and work here maybe tech okay
53:38
I was always in IT but I didn't have preferences over there it was completely
53:44
it was mind-blowing the other thing that had a very big impact is I suddenly realized that I had so many skills that
53:52
were needed because we always were running out of hands you know there was always I think these organizations
53:59
they're kind of patchy they're trying to post here people there but you know our biggest teams were in South Africa so
54:06
you know we're I was in the countries we often didn't have someone to do something or we were doing something
54:12
here locally and someone was designing something in Johannesburg and actually it allowed me to work so much outside of
54:19
my remmit that my job description was completely no you are so flexible you
54:25
can do what you want and actually this would never happen if I stayed in Europe
54:30
because in Europe you have this and there are so many other experts that are better than you to do other things and
54:36
you're not allowed to do a lot of projects you know you're not you don't have that opportunity so I think that
54:42
was definitely it was the best the best still the best decision in my life career wise very cool i like the
54:49
question it's very nice um I actually this is mine because now
54:55
you said something that it triggered my curiosity um how did the decision to go back home
55:02
came with yeah so uh I was there 4 and a
55:07
half years in West Africa and there were a few factors one of it
55:13
was I started to be tired with this newness and these you know you always
55:18
have to be you know it's very different world I think and after a while it tires
55:24
you in kind of like a very everyday thing you know that you know I couldn't
55:29
buy something on Amazon or something small that I couldn't have this thing and after a while when you had to go
55:36
without certain things you're feeling like you're sacrificing so I started to kind of feel that I wanted a change the
55:44
other thing that is serious and and and kind of uh was a important factor was
55:51
health so I was you know I went there feeling like I'm invincible like I will never be
55:57
sick and I was never sick almost ever you know like normal things but I was
56:03
never seriously ill and being in these countries well I felt
56:10
nothing will happen to me and I was you know immune to anything made me realize that there are
56:18
these advancement in medicine that we take for granted that you know there are
56:23
still illnesses that are very serious and you know I was always for the three countries I was in malaria zone so you
56:31
kind of starting to realize you you unfortunately see or hear people dying
56:37
from things that are not necessary like unnecessary and it kind of works on you
56:43
this worry started to start in me that that you know what if I have a malaria
56:50
what if I don't I you know what if my daughter has malaria she was then one
56:56
year old and we were in Cotto where there was no emergency services you
57:01
can't call an ambulance there will be traffic jam or something it's actually very complicated so you always on your
57:09
own and even you know you have this great resource as an expert obviously like I had you know this is completely
57:16
not comparable to someone that lives in there and has to work with their own
57:21
resources but I got tired of you know I had to go before going to the office I
57:27
had to stop by to test from finger to malaria so many times because I was
57:32
feeling unwell so you know when you have like a nose kind of blocked or you
57:38
slight fever immediately you have to go and check yourself and at first it's kind of like maybe thrilling you know
57:44
I'm a thrill seeker so I was thinking this is experience and this is but after
57:49
you and many years and months when you hear someone really getting ill or some
57:55
complications and and this were things that I've seen you actually I started to
58:00
be worried I was this was kind of like heavy me and I was just like I just want to leave and be somewhere where it's
58:09
predictable and I think that predictability and that kind of safety and together with the time I spent and
58:16
being you know having a very exposed role as well where I had to stay there
58:22
was some unrest civil unrest I had to stay there were some other things you know there were a lot of things
58:27
happening in in DRC at that time and decision also mine was that I will stay
58:33
you know that you know there were like a lot of things and I think after a while
58:38
you you kind of it kind of stop you know this bit by bit kind of comes to you and you're like if there is an opportunity I
58:46
will I will you know I will leave and I actually there was also a change of my
58:52
boss my bosses left and I was like ah it's a good opportunity and I resigned from Ericson so I went back and for the
59:00
first time I was thinking actually maybe it's a good idea to go back to Poland and I
59:06
never was considering previously going to my home country i never worked in Poland at that time my Polish started to
59:13
be so so like I wasn't using it at all so but you know my family is very big in
59:19
Warso it's very easy to be in Warso they said oh there is a house waiting for you
59:25
we have a flat you can take there were a lot of things that I wasn't expecting but my family I have a lot of siblings
59:32
was kind of like I was like wow this might actually happen I might go to my own you know country and work there so I
59:39
decided to go back to my country so I wasn't going back to London that wasn't an option ever for me at that time I
59:46
wanted to go to my home country yeah so that's the story very nice I suppose the fact of having your family on a family
59:53
on your own also affected that decision yeah so so my mom when she heard me
59:58
speaking to my very small daughter in French she was like "I don't believe you're speaking to her in French." And
1:00:04
I'm like "How can I speak to someone that doesn't speak back in my you know in Polish that I don't speak with
1:00:10
anyone?" And she was like "No I don't I don't I cannot foresee my granddaughter
1:00:17
not being able to speak Polish you have to do something with this." And I was like "Yeah that's a difficult language
1:00:23
that's a fair point you know so yeah that was a big factor as well that she comes back uh in and lives in Poland and
1:00:31
speaks Polish yeah totally nice so before we wrap up the episode it's
1:00:37
nearly 1 hour already recording time flies uh of course I I would like to
Guest Promotion
1:00:43
give you the the stage to to see where listeners can connect with you where can people follow you uh or find your work
1:00:52
yeah so I'm mainly present on LinkedIn uh I would say
1:00:57
I write or try to write a lot of articles there are some articles as well from my experience in in West Africa so
1:01:04
I'm uh you know welcome anyone any questions or anything that that your listeners might have uh through LinkedIn
1:01:11
i'm thinking of writing a book but more not really on expand live more like
1:01:17
business book so I would say it's more like a watch this spot let's see what will happen i don't know yet but uh but
1:01:24
it's exciting i think there are exciting times ahead for us i I feel that nice so
1:01:30
as always the link to the uh Vandas linkadine will be in the description of
1:01:35
the episode and eventually if if when this goes live there is a book there uh
1:01:42
the link will also be in the description uh if not stay tuned in the link in and
1:01:47
I assume you will publish something about it there yeah for sure so before
1:01:53
we go uh I would love if we can finish a little bit with a with an unexpected
Funny Story & Wrap-up
1:01:59
expert story or a funny one that you had in in your time in Africa was with this moment that you only think oh this can
1:02:05
only happen in Africa yeah so something that you will not expect or I haven't expect so I was uh
1:02:13
on my first day in Abij I arrived and I was kind of very you know kind of nervous not knowing what to expect and
1:02:20
I'm coming to to Ericson offices very nice and I see the cleaning lady that is
1:02:29
sitting on a tablet so she's actually you know that was 10 years ago because I
1:02:36
started in Abby John 10 years ago so she's basically writing or playing on a
1:02:41
tablet and I was like and then I realized my own
1:02:47
expectation which was well probably there are not tablets available in
1:02:52
Africa or probably there is no access you know maybe the Wi-Fi is not great
1:02:58
and I think it made me realize and actually I I seen it later on there is a
1:03:05
completely different development in digital um technology in Africa in West Africa
1:03:12
specifically and you know I would say it's completely different it's not
1:03:17
linear no one had these small Nokia phones you know I mean yeah maybe later but everyone started to be very
1:03:24
digital and I remember you know seeing that and
1:03:31
uh then telling my mom about that that this surprised me and kind of it tells
1:03:37
me and us in Europe that you know we expecting everything the same and things
1:03:42
are completely different they kind of compressed and uh you know in many ways
1:03:48
the same week or the same day maybe I've seen someone paying with their phone which was completely not possible at
1:03:53
that time in Europe so you know that no matter what we think we know we don't
1:04:00
know i would say nice it's a it's a nice uh last sentence to wrap up your
1:04:07
experience i think uh Vonda it has been an amazing amazing experience to talk
1:04:13
with you to have the opportunity to share the story uh your business perspective on on the topic also which
1:04:19
is a very very empower emp powerful story and and an empowerment from from from a woman young woman going alone uh
1:04:27
into into uh the West African countries to work so thanks a lot uh thank you so
1:04:32
much Mark very nice uh for all our listeners as always uh don't forget to
1:04:38
subscribe to follow share this episode and uh leave a comment of what you think about the of uh this experience until
1:04:46
then keep exploring stay curious and see you in the next episode of Expert Experience